Episode 104: How To Build a Brand When Trust is the Product

Erica Klinger is the VP of Marketing at AMCP, the professional association for managed care pharmacy professionals, where she works to optimize medicine and improve lives with a diverse group of stakeholders from health plans, PBMs, policymakers, biopharma, students and educational institutions. Under her leadership, AMCP was recognized by ASAE in 2025 for a Gold Circle Award for best website and a Power of Associations Award for addressing health disparities in medication through an awareness campaign.

Erica is active on brand and marketing advisory groups such as the National Health Council Brand Value Task Force, National Digital Roundtable and Global Biosimilars Week on the board of the DC Tech & Venture Coalition. Her experience as a digital pioneer has earned her speaking appearances and podcasts including Voices of Advocacy podcast, Advocacy Desk podcast, ASAE conferences, AMPLIFY 2023 and the first-ever Google Nonprofit Summit in DC.

What you’ll learn about in this episode:

Erica’s definition of branding and why your brand is the sum of experiences, perceptions, and trust.
Practical trends for brand and marketing experts including how AI will shape brand and product innovation, and why social media and search results are becoming the new face of your brand.
How the future of healthcare membership marketing lies in agile, AI-powered personalization that meets members in real time, removes friction, and builds lasting trust and loyalty through meaningful, surprise and delight engagement.
How to build and protect trust in a healthcare environment by positioning your organization as an unbiased, evidence-based perspective.
Why marketing leaders in membership organizations need to act as organizational orchestrators aligning education, policy, membership, and corporate partners around one unified mission.
Why trust is the core product in membership based organizations, and how retention becomes the growth strategy.
How community building differs from selling a static product, and why brand work is a living, breathing tool that happens every day.

Additional resources:

Transcript

Josh Dougherty:

Welcome to A Brave New Podcast. This is a show about branding and marketing in the healthcare space. But more than that, it's an exploration of what it takes to create brands that will be remembered and how marketing can be a catalyst for those brands' success. I'm Josh Dougherty, your host. Let's dive in.

Well, welcome to the show today. It's great to have you along. I am excited to have Erica Klinger from the Academy of Managed Care Pharmacists (AMCP) joining me today. I've known Erica for a long time and have the privilege of working with her today as well at AMCP. And really something that I've always respected about her is her ability to push for transformational change within organizations, to be a change maker, to be someone who is driving forward marketing thinking, driving forward thoughts about how we leverage technology to meet people where they are, build trust with people, build affinity with people. So I am so excited to have this conversation with her because I think if you are in that process of digital transformation in your organization or you're thinking about how do we use technology to build trust and relationships, she's a great person to learn from in that process. And so without further ado, I want to bring her in. Well, hi Erica. Thanks so much for joining me on the show.

Erica Klinger:

Thanks, Josh. So good to be here.

Josh Dougherty:

Awesome. Well, I'd love to dive in and have you share a little bit about your story. I know we've known each other for a number of years, but I'd love to have you tell a little bit of your career path, and where it's taken you, to our listeners.

Erica Klinger:

Sure. Well, I actually started in emerging digital, not healthcare. I was actually a fine arts major, and so my background's really in startups, digital tech and startups. And so that's where I really learned. There were no playbooks and digital was like this open frontier and everything was possible. And then my purpose after doing that, which was a challenge and an adventure, it changed after I actually survived a near fatal car accident. I was like in rehab for a couple of years. And ironically, at the same time, my older sister was battling brain cancer. It was just life changing, right.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

So that dramatically changed how I thought about impact and what success really meant in my career.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I think those transformative moments, those are both massive things. I don't know how they wouldn't change your focus. Right?

Erica Klinger:

Absolutely. And then at the same time, it was interesting because I got healthy again and my sister great, two surgeries, and she's doing great. Other than the medication she's on, which she still has challenges, she can't drive, she can't do anything. She's only a year older than me and I can bike and hike and run and swim, and she can't do any of that because of the medication she's on. So that was 10 years into my career, and I moved to mission-driven marketing. Really, I was at an ad agency, digital agency, and I got a job at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee, in ALSAC. That's their fundraising arm. Have you heard of it?

Josh Dougherty:

Yep. Yep.

Erica Klinger:

Everybody hears about St. Jude now, but when I came in, they were really doing a lot of that direct response and mail and TV, and I came in really on that digital wave and cause marketing. And so I had been working with corporations like FedEx and Helton and really building products with them and doing new things in the advertising space, doing some of their first advertising campaigns for Valentine's Day and landing pages. And so when I came to ALSAC St. Jude, I really helped them lead that shift from that traditional to this digital first engagement and led the team on search, like paid search, really, the web analytics as well as the fundraising analytics, the BI and social and digital advertising. And I don't know if you remember back then, but YouTube had just really emerged and Google Hangouts were cool.

Josh Dougherty:

Yes. I remember Google Hangouts. Yeah.

Erica Klinger:

Did you like them?

Josh Dougherty:

I remember that. I think they were okay. I do think that YouTube emergence was that first big explosion maybe. When I was in college, social media was starting, but I remember YouTube being that place where I could go and find information about anything. And having the ability to self-publish too, all of a sudden made an amazing difference. And the diversity of voices that you could find. And as we were thinking about the applications for marketing, working in that early transition period also, and fundraising for nonprofits because that's where my background is as well. I know we first met after the St. Jude's experience, it’s really interesting because nonprofit really struggled with that transformation.

Erica Klinger:

Yes. And that engagement. And I think you learn that by ... I was using Google Analytics and then when I went to St. Jude, we got more sophisticated. But it wasn't until those insights that we knew, that it wasn't the direct response that was working necessarily. In social media it was the happy patient and the storytelling that was bringing people in, and it was really the data. And so we were creating things like e-card builders, and so we weren't making an ask to donate, we were creating an experience with a patient, and that led to them becoming a donor because of the experience they had.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I think that's a remarkable thing about St. Jude. I was actually this morning reviewing a report on media trends in 2026 by Work, which is a research organization that I respect. And they were talking a lot about how the earned media and organic non paid marketing is the key to building trust today. And it just brought me full circle to what we're talking about now. Not the pushy give me money, do this thing, but the ability to build a brand that someone trusted and connected with so they were ready to give when they received that offer is so essential. So it's cool to think about how you were doing that work many years ago. What's accepted as a best practice.

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. And you relook at KPIs in different way. You're looking at revenue and cost per acquisition and cost per lead. And then when you're working in a nonprofit, it's different. It's a person, it's a person. And those donations could have a life or death impact. And so you really got to think of the value, not just that direct ROI.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. Well, let's jump forward a little bit to now. You're working as the VP of marketing at AMCP. Can you tell us a little bit about what AMCP is and what you're focused on there?

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. So after St. Jude, and then I worked at Seattle Foundation, so I went from nonprofit to a foundation. And then I worked seven years at a trade association with generics and biosimilars, so really into medicines. And so after seven years at a trade association, which is a corporate level, I really wanted to engage more with people. And I have a background in education, so AMCP was a really nice fit. It's a professional association. So it's people, it's more of that community that has the students. It has the professionals that work in managed care pharmacy. They're experts. They're focused on the formularies and improving access, affordability, and outcome from patients. And we do it through education and research and evidence and policy and engagement really sounds complicated, but really at the end of the day, AMCP's superpower is not being involved in just one of those pillars in stakeholders. So they're just not with the health plans or with the PBMs or with the pharmaceutical companies, they're across everything. So they're looking at that underlying structure. And so they, they're superpower’s siloing the healthcare stakeholders, getting everyone in the same room, and having those hard discussions. And that is the way you unite on solutions by hearing all the perspectives.

And then really that convening role is for AMCP to listen to those perspectives from healthcare and from that, they create the frameworks to make positive change for patients in the healthcare system, doing that through regulatory or practice or through legislation and advocacy.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. It's a very interesting foreshadowing. The organization as a whole does a similar role as someone who's managing transformation like we're going to talk about a little bit further in the conversation. But I love that idea of bringing everyone together to have the vital conversations that are going to actually drive things forward. Because I think that's something that all of us struggle with is how do we make a breakthrough? And you can't make it in a silo.

Erica Klinger:

No. And our tagline is Optimizing medicine. Improving lives. So it's all about optimization, so it's right up the digital marketer's alley. It's great.

Josh Dougherty:

What does marketing look like at AMCP? Like that's a big mission. You're talking to many audiences, you are convening, I think really important conversations. How does marketing play a role in that work?

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. I was a fine arts major, not a music major, but I do think that marketing acts as this orchestrator. And so we're always aligning, we're using that word all year. Aligning. Aligning education, aligning policy, membership, and all corporate partners around one shared outcome or mission. And so we're the people that have the ability to see everything that's happening and then communicate externally to meet people where they're at, whether they're a student new to a new AMCP, or it could be that they've spent 30 years and they're very expert professionals, members and a healthcare executive doing really systemic change.

Josh Dougherty:

I think that orchestration has become even more important as we think about new technology, the rise of artificial intelligence, all these things. There's an ability all of a sudden to do what we always dreamed about in marketing, which was getting all of our data together and finding true insights to influence people in a positive way. I think sometimes people think about marketers as being like, oh, you're selling me something I don't want. The alternative to that is if we have access to this data and we can bring it all together in a unified way, we can orchestrate an experience that is going to give people the experience that they exactly want so that they can dive deeper into things they care about.

Erica Klinger:

Absolutely. A hundred percent.

Josh Dougherty:

And tell me about focus right now. So if you're orchestrating ... I know we work together on this, but thinking about the bigger, higher level, what's the focus this year of your work as an orchestrator? Where are you trying to take the organization now?

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. And we appreciate the guidance from our marketing and tech partners, A Brave New, you're really key. It's so much about having that solid foundation before you can scale. And so we're modernizing our systems. We have HubSpot, we have Salesforce, we have Drupal, our websites, we have these systems, and then we have the data, but we really need those processes so that we can work together and that we're faster and we're smarter and we're so close. I've now been here a little over two years, and the first year we've walked. I think we didn't even have an email subscription box on our website walk. We had the systems, but we didn't have the marketing strategy behind it. And then jogging year two, we were starting to run, but we didn't have all the pieces or alignment as a group. And then year three is now where we just entered and I think we're about to run. It's exciting. Definitely some key components that are driving our work though.

Josh Dougherty:

Awesome. Well, I would love to ... As we focus on this, we're not going to get into maybe the tiki-taki of what are we doing at a tactical level, but I think you as a marketer and you as a leader are always guided by bigger picture of where you're trying to go. And that's where I thought there's broad applicability to the work that you're doing and why I wanted to have you in this conversation. So I'd like to talk about big picture around your brand and how you're driving interaction around the brand. And then also I think people are always interested if they have an organization that's struggling with maybe systemic change in their marketing, how do they go about pushing forward a transformation? And so I wanted to dig into both those topics hopefully. Does that sound like a good plan?

Erica Klinger:

Sure.

Josh Dougherty:

Awesome. So before we get started, I ask everyone this question about how do you define branding? I think it's interesting because branding and the concept of brand is so ubiquitous, but everyone defines it differently. So for you, when you think about those terms, how do you define them?

Erica Klinger:

That's a great question because yeah, I've had to not correct people but just share, I have a totally different perspective. So I think of branding as the sum of experiences and perceptions and the trust that you build over time. So it is not your logo or your tagline, it's whether people understand your value in everything that you do at every touch point. So they believe in your credibility and value and that they choose to simply engage with you again. And really, that's it. I feel like that is your brand, your core brand will evolve and change, but it's really those perceptions and experiences and trust that-

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I love those three definitions because they, for me, really define branding as it truly exists. You have some influence over it as an organization, but you don't own that brand because experiences, perceptions, trust all exist in your members' minds for you as an organization. So it's what do the pharmas think about you? What do PBMs think about you? What do each of those audiences think about, and how do they translate those perceptions into whether or not they want to engage more deeply with you? I think as a convener, you have the opportunity to build trust because you're building bridges between organizations and people with very different agendas. And that's a special place to be in a market because we live in a time ... And I think we'll do a podcast in the next couple of weeks around this idea of the Edelman Trust Barometer, which talks about this global survey around trust and how that works and what the state of trust is in the world really right now. And I think their perception is that there is a real lack of trust. I think we all feel that in society broadly, but that businesses, organizations have a chance to be trust builders by connecting people who may not always connect. So that's the cool thing about AMCP. You're doing that work actively every day.

So as we look forward a year from now, or you look into the future, you're focused on this last year of transformation, you're working on building trust, positive perceptions, great experiences, what do you want AMCP to be remembered for by your members and the other people who interact with your brand in the coming year?

Erica Klinger:

Well, when I came on, of course, as any VP comes on, there are things that aren't working. And one of the things that ... We had a lot of polls and audits from our members, and it was just hard for them to understand all we do. So I think at the end of the day, we're going to be successful if AMCP is thought of as clear, credible, and just generally helpful that we make the complexity of healthcare easier to understand and a play that adds value to them, makes their life easier. How can you pay and invest in any membership if it's not helping you every day?

I think an example, I was just talking to some members this week and one of them said, and it really resonated, one of our superpowers is definitely we're a community. How do you explain that? How do you explain that unless you don't have it? And I thought of it as simply, if I was going to visualize, it's like today, if I go to LinkedIn and I see a job for VP marketing and I go there to apply, I see right now something that says 5,000 applicants applied overnight. And then think of how much it would take ... Even though you have AI and these tools now to make things faster, like your Resumehelp, but how do you get in touch with people? Because there's so much going on and people are so busy. I used to be able to invite someone to a coffee on LinkedIn in the message and hope to just connect with them and maybe get a job, but now people are smarter than that. They're like, I know why you want to have a coffee. And it's so automated and powered by AI on both sides. There's no trust in the fact that if I even send my resume, they even received and are going to get back to me. I hear all the time from people I've applied to 30 to 50 jobs and I never heard anything back from a lot of them.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally. And even from an algorithmic perspective on a feed, there's no ability to get visibility unless you're paying, which also erodes trust too. So even if you're working really hard in this ... We pursue down this same concept. You're looking for jobs, you're applying, you're working really hard to build your own thought leadership there's no guarantee that anyone is even seeing that thought leadership to reinforce why someone would want to hire you in the first place. Virtual networking is so difficult for all these changes. The bulk of messaging, the number of direct messages you receive, and that number of applicants. Just noise is higher than it ever has been to summarize it.

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. And associations are great at that, not just ours, but that's their value of bringing the people together. And you can do it virtually. Like Zoom, we talk and we have good conversations. But I think it's really fundamentally built on those connections that start and evolve over time by being involved in volunteering or being on a committee and every person you meet links you to the next person. It just over time compounds to the point that you have your little network. So anytime you change a job or need advice from someone or a different perspective, it's right there. You don't have to beg for it. It's so easy to search and find someone that can relate.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. And it sounds like then the core, the association is all about building these associations. AMCP specifically is all about building those human connections so someone can pick up a phone and text someone when they need advice versus asking a question on LinkedIn, etc.

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. Mutual gain too, right?

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah.

Erica Klinger:

Because we're trying to provide the value all the time for connections and education and training. But AMCP is getting the value from them because we can't do our job if we don't know what's happening and what people's pain points are. So we can't make solutions without them. So it's truly this relationship and partnership with our membership, and so we're authentic when we're like, we need your voice. We really do.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally. Otherwise, what else is the product that you're selling? There's no other product except maybe I think you've talked about trust being the product, and you mentioned it earlier. So maybe can you share a little bit about how with trust being that central product, how brand building in the membership space is different from other verticals?

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. Yeah. Trust is the product. You're not really selling a thing. You're selling why people should care and stay engaged. Now we do have product, things that people can buy. So if you go to a conference you're registering, if you go to an event, a lot of times sometimes they have a price. Sometimes our training, we'll have a price with a lot of things that members get for free and they can't even use them all. But in general to keep them there and retain them, it's really about staying engaged. So I think as a brand or a professional association lives in that community, that works in that area, and you're working to strengthen that community and their expertise, and it's like every day. So you're developing and listening, understanding where the gaps are, and then bringing those relevant issues to the table to talk about. So it's just highly and fast-paced. It's not like something where you just create this product.

Me and you, we've worked in that before. Even if you're in the donation setting, that doesn't change that much your mission, you're donating. You could over time optimize that donation over and over again with different messages and tests. But here, it's a growing community that has different needs every day by all those different people depending on where they are in their career. So you have your base training, events, conferences, but then you're having these round tables and podcasts around different issues and topics, which will change all the time. So it is challenging a little bit on the creative team. Kudos to them because they're like "What can we do evergreen? Can we reuse this again?" But it's like if it's not real time and real and something someone needs right now, they're not going to use it.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. Well, I think that's reflective of an overall change that we've seen too. We used to say the game is all about optimization, but now it's about value creation and optimization at the same time, which is infinitely more difficult, but I think more rewarding when you can actually follow through and do it. I'd love to shift the conversation a little bit and talk about pushing organizations forward. We've known each other for a number of years, and one of the things I've always appreciated about you is the fact that you are helping organizations look towards the future and say, yes, let's do what is good for us and vital, now you always focus on that, but you're also saying, we need to keep an eye out on the horizon, otherwise technology is going to change, approaches are going to change. And maybe the fundamentals of building trust don't change, but the way we do it is going to shift. And so with that in mind and with that constant forward-looking mentality that you bring, I'd love to hear what you think is on the horizon for healthcare membership organization brands or maybe just membership organizations in general. What do they need to be thinking about as they look out into the next couple of years?

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. I know the people love me for that and also hate me for that. I'm always like, okay, we've got to try this, but you got to bring people along. They're not there because it hasn't even been done yet, right?

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

So it's such a challenge. I can see it very clearly. I see things lining up and I see where it's going to be. But then to bring the organization to something that's a blank canvas is really hard. But I would say if I would tell anyone where I know it's going, and not just me, but just even going to CMO type conferences, it's this data-driven personalization, which is the buzzword. Everybody's like, what is that? And what it is, it's hard to do. Once you can get it all hooked up and ready, it's actually going to be easier and more efficient and effective. But it's hard to get there because people see the other things still working. And it takes a dramatic shift in technology to go to the data-driven personalization so it's really like the CRM using that data.

Once you have everything hooked up and you have the data, now you've got to use the data. I hear people's pain points, it's just sitting there, it's not actionable. So I think what's going to happen is happening already, is that now that we have the data, we want to resurface that data back to members and partners in a way that feels relevant and actionable for them. They don't want us to just hide the data. They want that transparency so I would call it proof of value. That's something that we're working on in this year's campaign, if you will. Members want proof of value and they want to see it delivered where it matters to them and when. They're like, you should know me.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I think it's interesting because seeing a shift. For a long time, I think people and members in your space have wanted personalization of content of don't just talk to me like you don't understand my relationship with you or how long I've engaged with you. If someone's been a member and highly involved for years, they want the content to acknowledge that. But I think the thing that we're seeing with AI, and not so much just generative AI, but the ability for AI to do analysis across all of the touch points and engagements you have with someone is all of a sudden they're looking for that relevance to always be there. And we used to say, I know back in the day, oh, only Amazon can do that because they're so big. But the truth is now we should be able to meet people where they're at, not just with messaging, but with the timing of messaging and with the channel of messaging because, in some ways, new AI models have allowed us to understand those trends and those key touch points and when they should be happening so much more.

Erica Klinger:

And that's the expectation I would say. It's not only the expectations of members and customers, it's the expectations of your peers in your organization of what marketing should be able to do. And you're like, okay, yes, but inr order for us to do that, you’ve got to let go. And if that's something new, normally you're normally creating that email, uploading a list and sending it. You got to let go and you got to put it on the customer. If the customer chose this channel and is doing this behavior right now, that's when we're going to send the message. We're not going to do it that you decide to do it at Tuesday at 3:00 PM.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

And that's a big shift.

Josh Dougherty:

It's a massive shift because it takes nonlinear thinking and I think a very different approach to planning than previously.

Erica Klinger:

And it's not really control. And then I would say we say that word data-driven personalization. When you're in a world of marketing and creative where everybody looks at you to have that big campaign. And we know from looking at analytics that those big campaigns ... We talk about trust, people see ads anymore, that's inherently not trusted.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

So you've got to make your campaigns look organic and hide the fact that they're paid because you need to use paid for people to see it. So you're actually paying to do a campaign to yourself.

Josh Dougherty:

Exactly. And then having the benefit, I think all around caused by ... Or having to lift all your organic efforts for people to see. Yep. What do you think the role of ... We talk about using the data you have, but we've had good conversations about also gathering more data in a frequent and efficient manner, I think through surveying and things like that. What do you think the role of asking people proactively for feedback is in this growth of data-driven personalization and marketing?

Erica Klinger:

My gosh, everything. I'm so excited. So our new tools this year are going to be SMS text, which we already used for advocacy, but for communication along this journey. And then surveying becomes helpful too. So you have at every touch point ... Or not every touch point. But you need to have real-time feedback on what your members want. It's not about one big survey that happens every six months that you go look at and then optimize everything. If you're talking about an individual person, the only way you're probably going to know what they're doing right now and what they need is asking them. And so I think this survey can be a very fun way to interact with people. We’ve got to change the way that surveys are dull and boring. They need to be fun. So you need to be able to ask with the smiley faces, how was your experience? And just by working in marketing you know if you just ask someone what they think, they will talk, they'll tell you. So I think that's an important part of your marketing plan and loyalty and retention is really positioning the asks as fun and helpful to them because you can personalize your journey better if they provide information.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. And making sure you actually use the data, right, because people are going to expect to see change from the feedback that they receive or they give as well.

Erica Klinger:

Keep it simple with the plan, right?

Josh Dougherty:

Totally. So we talked a lot about what people are hoping for in this. I think data-driven personalization is the thing. I think about the experiences even I have with my wife as we're looking at marketing we get for my son's little league baseball league and we're like, how did they not know that we're already doing this? And this is a volunteer-led organization. So the expectation is there. But I'd love to shift and talk about what you are trying to provide as well. So we're balancing both the expectation of data-driven personalization, but then the need to provide value education and advocacy as a brand for you. How do you balance that need to provide value with the need to get out the right messages from an education perspective, the need to drive advocacy to make sure that in the managed care pharmacy space, the right conversations are happening?

Erica Klinger:

Yeah. Again, we just talked about the technology. I think we have to lean on that to help us balance. This is where the humans need a little help.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah, totally.

Erica Klinger:

There's no way my mind would blow if I'm trying to provide everything at once. And truthfully, not every member at AMCP is ready for all the activities we provide because it's end to end from when you start and not everyone's ready for advocacy. You can't do advocacy unless you know about the issues and you're involved and you're talking about it. So I think that's where our goal is, find the data with simple messages that are connected to the behavior and the insights from our CRM, but making sure that you're bringing that person along on that journey on their individual paths when they're ready, if that makes sense. And I guess I would just say whether it's a transactional email … So for example, you go and take a webinar, you've completed that webinar, you might get a message, how was the webinar?If you were going to do another webinar with this one, this one or this one, be better. Simple. And then move that on to, okay, they completed it, now they're going over to the member portal and they're seeing some popup or something that now offers them to take this next thing in the journey.

So if they just took something on prior authorization, guess what? You should just join our AMCP links group, interest group on prior authorization and this event is coming up now. So you're weaving them through in small bites instead of throwing them the email. That's the laundry list of everything coming up for everybody. Because I think people are exhausted and then their social posts. We have the ability for them to then see that on their feed later. So then maybe it's a post that goes on their feed that's two or three days later reminding them the date to sign up for the group, or it's even better. You don't want to sell really in social media, them seeing the output of another link's interest group event that makes them be like, Ooh, I want to get involved in that.

Josh Dougherty:

Yep. And so ultimately this is the personalization and the rate at which you're showing people things is intimately related. And it's also empowering us, I think, to do what we always talked about in marketing, which was follow a user journey, but you actually have the ability to follow through on it now because of how data is connected.

Erica Klinger:

And they're all different. I'd love to hear your thought about that old school. Let's map out the user journey. How are you going to map out a million people's user journeys?

Josh Dougherty:

I think it's a lot harder than it used to be. I think it requires a more flexible approach because we used to get really specific. I remember whiteboarding out with clients 10 years ago and we would say, okay, then they're going to do this, and then they're going to do that, and then they're going to do that. And I think this requires us more to think about that journey in terms of data sets and the maturity of someone's relationship with you, but it becomes much more of less of a journey and more of a web and understanding which experiences interrelate with each other on a web so that you're able to give someone truly that choose your own adventure I think that they've always wanted to have with every organization that they interact with.

Erica Klinger:

And I think that we're seeing a change in just even the content and the channels and video I would say this year is just ... Someone said something like, don't give your CEO a 10-page report. Just create a 3-second video. Everything has changed so much. So on top of that complexity of the journey, it's creating content too. And so this is where I think that AI could really help creating that cliff note version of things.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

That people are looking for.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I think especially some of the tools like HubSpot has a content remix tool. There's a tool called Lately AI that's out there. These are all relying on generative AI to take bigger, more complex pieces of content and chunk them down into little bite-sized pieces that are relevant. They'd be interesting tools if someone's thinking about how do I shorten some complexity and get it to bite-sized pieces to be able to use. Even with that ... Maybe not with ... I don't know if I use those tools with a C-suite, but to build education around your organization a hundred percent and to do it without sacrificing valuable time of your team that's probably already overworked.

Erica Klinger:

And it's very specific. We have experts that use terminology that is specific and that shows our thought leadership. So we can't have AI reduce that to something more general because then it takes our value away. So I think it's both. People are getting confused what the channels do and they still serve a purpose. So social media is going to serve to engage and pique their interest and get them in. But if you're playing the AI game, you still need that trusted long form and citations that are out there for when they're ready. So it's like both. You got to do both.

Josh Dougherty:

Got to do both. Yeah. So I'm sure there's some people that are listening and they're like, oh my gosh, my organization is so not ready for this. They can see the vision of where they need to go and that chasm is large between where they are and where the future is. Full disclaimer, I think everyone feels that all the time. So if you're feeling that it's okay. But that process I think of moving from, I know that we need to use digital tools to be transformative, I'm not sure how to get, there is commonly called this idea of digital transformation or moving through a digital maturity framework. That's something that you've worked on, I think your whole career and pushed organizations through. So as we move to the back end of this conversation, I'd love to hear you talk about the main framework or how to think about digital transformation and why you think it's so vital.

Erica Klinger:

Yes. Digital transformation. Digital maturity. It's so weird because it's like digital is always transforming. When has it not? But yeah. One constant, which is great to know, is that I've really been using the same models the last 15 years. I think that if you work in digital, you might know the Google DMM model, the digital maturity model, it's a concept that's more structured models. People talked about digital maturity, but we didn't have the roadmap or documentation. And finally someone big, Google, came out with it. So we could be like, okay, trust, let's do this.

And so for the past 15 years, I've been using that same methodology and this is my fifth digital transformation at a nonprofit or government organization. And that methodology works. So while we have these new things happening and data technology and AI, reel it back to the basics. I talked a little bit about walk before you run and it's really true. And so if you go up and look at that model, when I came into this organization, as with all, pretty much year one was really, they call it the nascent. You're really working on your data access and integrity. And when I came in, our main focus was those basics. So just bite off the basics.

We had a website revamp. We actually won an award, a Gold Circle award from ASAE. We revamped our Drupal website, revamped the search so that it connected all the websites and we created a personalized member center with notifications. So even though it was overwhelming, all the content on our site, we had one place that they can go and we could quickly, like a tweet, put: This is what you need to know. And then that was segmented based on who they are and where they worked. So there was a little bit of ... It wasn't true database personalization, even though it was pulling in my name, my member number, and who I was, it was a quick way to do it without building an app, right?

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. It's a first start. That nascent just dive in and get going.

Erica Klinger:

And then it's your team though. That was a big part of it too. So you have the data and the technology, but a lot of times you're going in an organization, the team's not set up. I can't go teach everyone 30 years of digital.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

So we did come up with roles. And this is over two years ago that I've come in. And I already knew where we needed to go because I looked at the staff. And so one of the roles that was really key, if people listening don't have it, is that marketing ops role. We have a director of marketing ops and growth. We don't have a director of marketing because there is more involved in hooking up things and being that person that can build relationships across the organization with a more strategic lens, which can manage data, can manage assets and orchestrate. I always say that person's the glue that puts everything together. The role of your team is super important. So year one, we just bit off the website getting member personalization a little better and then better roles on the marketing team.

If you look at that framework, year two is called emerging. And so immediately I came in and made dashboards in HubSpot with KPIs and everyone's like, what's our KPI? I'm like, well, they are marketing KPIs. There are other KPIs I want to get to, but the only thing I can control right now are marketing KPIs, which might be website visits year over year, email open rates year over year. And you're still channel-centric so you might say, email, I want to get better year over year. The website traffic, I want to get better year over year. Social media engagement. You're not still yet at the level of total ROI and those KPIs, but better. And what we did was hire a marketing manager that is a senior manager that is very savvy and forward-looking. So was already working with AI, very focused on social and understood advertising, which was really important when we had ad partners. We really needed someone with that gift because it's complicated.

Josh Dougherty:

I think this second year is so important because I think some people can try to jump from year one to year three. And the exponential knowledge that the organization has to have makes that so difficult because even though it may be a channel-centric metric, channel-centric metrics don't tell the whole story. They're telling you a little bit. They help people in a simpler way build that discipline of looking at data and making decisions off of data before they're looking at ... I think when you get to a unified data or sometimes I think of the fully connected data being a personalized journey-centric view of data and KPIs, it becomes so much harder to identify what lever to pull unless you understand the underlying channel metrics as well.

Erica Klinger:

Totally. We actually, in year two, if anyone's listening in my organization, I think we jumped two levels. So we should get a pat on the back. We did so much and it was because the organization also did it. The organization was ready. And that takes leadership and more people involved in seeing a little bit of the data to want to understand and be more connected. So on the roadmap, that's at the very end of year two. I say we were connected. We did a data review, and we had that trust because there was a lot of cultural trust. Trust in the data you're telling me. Is that correct? Because that's not jiving with what I've been telling people for 10 years.

Josh Dougherty:

Totally.

Erica Klinger:

Then is my data ... Do I have duplicates? What if I send an email to a VIP and it's the wrong name? That's like, I get it. I get it. And especially being in healthcare and just the broader healthcare, when you're talking about life and death and patients and the work we do, I'm also working with people that are very serious about the work they do. So you can't just jump too quickly. But data, getting extra help on Salesforce, getting you involved as experts across the landscape of working in healthcare and HubSpot, because having those outside third-party voices helps. I could sit there, but I'm not an expert. I've been working at organizations, so I need to lean on my digital experts and trust them to guide us. So I think that was a really big help at the year-end of two, so that going in year three, our team can really play the role of what we're supposed to do on an association and build the great programming and the communication. But now we have a support plan where we have consultants to help us with some of the trickier things. I do think once it's all set up though, it'll just be maintenance and optimization and there'll be another new thing with AI that comes out again.

Josh Dougherty:

A hundred percent

Erica Klinger:

Once you're in three, you're getting there.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I know we're running short on time here, but I want to ask one more question because the thing that strikes me, and I think it's funny too, you talk about I've been using the same framework for 15 years. When I think about branding or about my consulting work, it's the same framework too used over and over again, applied to different moments where there's different technology or different problems to solve. And I think why those same frameworks work is because it's about transforming not only the technology but people's mindsets. And so in all of this, this is a massive change-management project. It's messy. It can lead to really difficult moments, and at the end of the day, it's only successful if you can build internal alignment. So share a little bit about tricks that you've learned to build alignment through this process. How do you bring people along? And I know it's not always perfect, it's not always successful, but what are maybe some tidbits you can share after doing this process, this messy process with five different organizations?

Erica Klinger:

And I think funny, we started the podcast on AMCP and how we align our stakeholders. This “A” word is huge. We've got AI, we've got Alignment, we've got Amplification, all these words this year. So I would say again, I don't know if they're tricks, they do work. Here are the three commonalities that I've seen gain traction. One, focus on the data to unite people. It's not about whose idea is better. Let's see what the data is telling us. Let's lean on what the data is showing. And no one owns anything. Don't make it a battle. It's not marketing against anybody. Marketing surrounds everything inside and out. So we're on the outside communicating things. We're also deeply on the inside with the optimization and website structures. We're just people there trying to help everybody. We're not against you. We're with you. Use the data as the point so the emotions don't flare.

I think number two, I would say is never was I at a place where I didn't have ultimate decision makers that knew what I was trying to do. That's why they hired me. So I had someone in there with me trying to orchestrate the roadblocks or friction. And if you don't have that in your organization, you just can't do it alone. It'll just stop. So you have to be able to be transparent and talk to people. And it doesn't always have to be your CEO. That's the one you’ve got to find in your organization, the champions of change. And so I think that's the third one. So you have the decision makers that have the budget and the support for you fundamentally being there because you're going to need to resource. Technology costs money. People and resources change costs, money. HR needs to be involved.

I guess the third one is the people. Everybody else. You can't make everyone happy. And you have to recognize that people adapt at their own pace to change. I'm a military spouse of 30-something years. I've changed and lived in 12 different places. I can adapt, I can take change, I can take change and run. It actually is exciting, but for a lot of people, it's not. And nothing you can say to them is going to get them to jump quicker. So what I've found is I just start with the pool of people that do relate to change and are okay with it and build that bigger and bigger and bigger instead of trying to waste energy or anxieties, trying to talk to someone about why they should change.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. It's a really beautiful strength-based approach, right, of saying, let's build on what we have that's strong and let's attract people to join in on that process. I would love to close out our conversation by just hearing about some of the successes you've had at AMCP. You said you already entered year three of the transformation. What are the bright moments, the successes you've seen so far?

Erica Klinger:

Oh, so many. And I don't know if other people see them, but I've been able to see people that have evolved their role and stepped up to fill a gap in a time of change. There are those people that get mad and then those people that turn around hunker down, don't pull up their job description. They just go and jump in and say, okay, what can I do?

So really people stepping up to learn and grow. Then I think the last thing is seeing the team come together and pointed towards the same goal and mission. That's really the magic. I've seen it. I have seen it out of the other places. So when I come in, I know when it's working and we're not there yet. And we're really starting to get there as an organization. To the point where usually I could come in and just have my market plan ready because I know what I want to do that year. But instead we're being thoughtful, we're waiting for the alignment, we're working together so that everybody's on board, we're all pointing in the same direction, and it's going to make that have no doubt that we'll crush any goal when we all are pointing at the same mission.

Josh Dougherty:

Yeah. I love that so much. I love that story as an encouragement to people who are moving through the process too, to just keep focused on the end goal because when you start to break through that transformation moment, the opportunities for achieving great things are so big. So I'd love to close out by just giving you a chance, Erica, to share how people can connect with you. What's the best way for folks to stay up to speed on the work that you're doing and the work that AMCP is doing?

Erica Klinger:

I know another channel, another message, but I think the only one that probably really cuts through the noise is LinkedIn. If you just connect with me, Erica Klinger on LinkedIn and then send me a note, a message. Definitely not a long one is the way to go. Like, Hey, I heard this. I think it'd be great if we could connect. And then, Here is what we have in common. I find that quickly breaks through because you have all the AI things out there right now, probably hitting up our ads. And then I am in it to learn. I am always learning. You have to do that. You can't think that you know everything. And so I want to learn from other people. So if someone comes to me and has something that they have a problem or a challenge, that's usually the ones I gravitate toward because I'm going through the same thing and by talking to someone else in my field, it really helps me to make things more clear. And I appreciate, Josh, when you're there, when I throw things at you getting that sounding board. So just hit me up on LinkedIn and I'll get back to you.

Josh Dougherty:

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing some of the things you've learned through your many years of doing this really important work. I really appreciate the time that you've given up. I know you're busy.

Erica Klinger:

Not a problem. Enjoyed it. Let's do it again.

Josh Dougherty:

Sounds great. Thanks for listening to this episode of A Brave New Podcast. Go to abravenew.com for more resources and advice on all things brand. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love by subscribing, rating, and reviewing A Brave New Podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. A Brave New Podcast is created by A Brave New, a branding agency in Seattle, Washington that crafts bold and memorable healthcare brands. Our producer is Rob Gregerson.